God shuffled his feet and looked around at them.

Making a strong theological argument against allowing homosexual clergy just cannot be made. It’s time to focus on things that matter, plain and simple.

Stay safe, and be good to each other.

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33 thoughts on “God shuffled his feet and looked around at them.

  1. I saw the link to your posting on FB – Lovin the Lutheran Church and followed it here. Well spoken and well thought out – thank you! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions without name calling or ugliness and for keeping us focused on the call to “love one another”… I haven’t found an argument yet that can knock down that one!

    1. Hi Cherie!

      Thanks for visiting and for your comments. We miss the mark all too often when we start focusing on the outside fringe like this, huh?

      I’m with you… can’t easily knock down love at the core of our faith lives!

      Be well!

  2. Ian:

    Thank you!! We need more people to speak up and proclaim the truth. It’s about love and acceptance not hate and creating classes of people.

    Bless you and your church!

    1. Thanks so much. I am so relieved that these kinds of conversations have been put to rest (for the most part) at the church I’m at. I imagine this is causing a lot of undue stress and rifting in the congregation.

      Best of luck between now and the 23rd. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help, even if just in conversation.

      ian@goodshepluth.org

  3. Thanks for your insightful talk. As a member of Immanuel in Crosby, I am frustrated that our pastor, most of our council and some of the congregation have lost sight of the MAIN THING. So much emotional, physical and financial resources are being wasted on this battle. I will be forwarding your link to my pastor.
    Pray for our vote on May 23rd–Pray to Stay ELCA!!
    God Bless!

    1. Hi Nena,

      Thanks for visiting– and leaving a note! It’s great to connect with people from “back home”!

      Isn’t it incredible how much of our time, talents and resources we throw away on issues at the fringe of importance?

      My great-aunt’s funeral and cousin’s weddings were at Immanuel way back when… beautiful place, and I sincerely hope and pray that it will still be a part of the ELCA come May 24th!

      Peace, love, and progress to you all! 🙂

  4. “Making a strong theological argument against allowing homosexual clergy just cannot be made…”

    Seriously?! 2,000 years of tradition and a vast majority of Christians throughout the world say differently. You might not agree, and you might even have some good theological points to make to support your beliefs. But this statement you start out with is ludicrous.

    1. Nate, rather than pointing fingers without substantive words, I would encourage you to present a “strong theological argument against allowing homosexual clergy”.

      I have yet to see one that is contextually and theologically sound.

    2. Additionally, I don’t doubt that a good number (don’t know about “a vast majority”) of Christians don’t agree with ordaining homosexual clergy, but just because it’s not popular doesn’t make it wrong.

      That argument in itself is a classic example of the logical fallacy known as the “appeal to tradition”. I really don’t think my statement comes anywhere near the status of ludicrous by any means.

  5. Ian,

    I think we spent too much time judging other. I actually carry a stone in my pocket to remind myself of Jesus’ words in John 8:7. I wish we coud spend as much time loving each other as we spend judging each other.

    Marshall

    1. ‘Tis a beautiful reminder that none of us is perfect. We all mess up, yet we all have the potential to be so good as well.

  6. “Making a strong theological argument against allowing homosexual clergy just cannot be made.”

    That would be news to contemporary Lutheran theologians (and seminary/university professors) like Michael Root, Jim Nestingen, Steven Paulson, Walter Sundberg, Larry Yoder, Robert Benne, David Yeago, Carl Braaten, Mekane Yesus (president of the Ethiopian Lutheran Church, the largest Lutheran body in the world), Gemechis Buba (director of ELCA African ministries) …let alone hundreds or thousands of other theologians throughout the centuries out of hundreds of different denominational groups.

    Are you somehow smarter than all of them, or closer to God, does your shallow theological exposition automatically trump the sophisticated and deep theological positions taken by the above theologians, or…? Maybe some humility would suit you better. And remember: Just saying it’s so, doesn’t make it so.

    1. All I’m saying is that I have yet to hear a contextually and theologically sound argument against it. A single bible verse stretched to justify entire ideas doesn’t qualify as strong in my book. I believe the bible guides a larger conversation. But that’s just me.

      And Tommy, would you like to point out some specific points made by this list of people? I mean, I could just run off a bunch of names of theologians, professors and pastors who agree with what I said too, but I don’t see the point. Come to think of it, I don’t see the point of smarmy name-calling either.

      You’re right in that saying it’s so doesn’t make it so. Good thing the bible verse I point to reads the same in everybody’s book. I’m just thankful we’re all entitled to our own opinions.

      Thanks for commenting!

  7. ian,

    Thank you so much for your viewpoint. The lutheran church that I grew up with is currently facing this issue. The church is being led by the pastors to leave the ELCA. We have voted the measure down, but it appears they are going to make us vote on it again. I feel hurt that the church is even considering this issue. It just seems like the church is doing alot of judging against other people. That is the opposite of what we are taught in church. Like you said loving God and eachother are the main points.

  8. Really good stuff here.

    It’s been fun to watch the view count grow on YouTube. Your Grandpa’s have really been trying to drive the the video viral with all of their friends.

  9. Well said! Thank you! The conversation on this issue for those hot to pull out of the ELCA almost always has little to do with real people whom God has created, redeemed and sanctified and whom God has called to serve his Church. The irony in the loud din some call conversation is that it is easier to see the face of Jesus in those who are being condemned as sinners (or worse labels) than those who proport to hold to the truth. That there are theologians using the Holiness Code of Leviticus as their authority would make Luther turn over in his grave. As for Jesus, from my perspective he had a field day running roughshod over the law set forth in Leviticus and advanced by his detractors.
    Again, thank you for your commentary.

  10. Ian,

    thank you for putting this video together. You summed up what I have been thinking since my own congregation started the process to sever ties. It’s a sorry state of affairs when people in your own congregation start calling you and others who disagree with their campaign “You liberal ELCA-ers” with about as many warm fuzzies as calling someone the N-word. I felt incredibly guilty pulling my children from Sunday School, but they should not be subject to that. Where is Christ in all of this anger?

    Stay true to your beliefs. I can’t help but think Wasilla is a better place because of the message you have to offer.

    Peace,

    Kelly

  11. while I applaud your choice to advocate supporting our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and to share the Good News we are forgetting that God stated clearly that no man shall lie with a man nor woman with woman. I will not judge homosexuals for their behavior, that is His job. Mine is to love others as I am loved. How can we change God’s word? We must not try. We can love our homosexual friends relatives and others , without following their spiritual guidance. God created Eve for Adam , not david for adam. or lula for joan. May God bring His people together in love and peace

    1. Patti, I appreciate and respect your opinion, but to blindly state that God himself is anti-homosexuals is to fall trap to the very sound byte theology discussed in my video. I’m sure you’d point me to Romans 1:27. I would point you to Romans 2:1. The list goes on. I would encourage us all to worship the creator, not the creation. The bible is a tool for further conversation, not the end all and be all. God is the end all and be all. Regarding this Adam and Eve, David and Adam etc list you have going on: God created us for each other. That’s the point.

  12. Belated thanks for sending me the transcript. There is so much cherry-picking of Bible verses to vilify same-sex attraction; but there are many Old Testament admonitions which are ignored:

    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
    DEUTERONOMY 22:22
    If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
    MARK 10:1-12
    Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
    LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
    MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
    DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
    I’m certain you don’t agree with these teachings from the Bible about sex. And you shouldn’t. The list goes on: The Bible says clearly that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable, as is a king’s having many concubines. (Solomon, the wisest king of all, had 1,000 concubines.) Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the Scriptures. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control, discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing one’s parents nude.

  13. I am so glad I found your website and I was able to watch this video “God Shuffled His Feet…” Your words are so true!! If only we would all follow these commandments, ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ [c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'” Matthew 22:37-40 NIV. If everyone would follow these two commandments then we would not even be having this conversation. Thank you so much for you!

  14. Ian, just a follow up on the Immanuel in Crosby vote. First vote to leave in May was about 70%. Second vote in September was about 80% to leave. In between was much behind the scenes deviousness from the council and pastor. My family has moved on to a new church home and we will build new relationships there. It is sad to leave many good friends and our church family, but when God no longer seems to be welcome in church, it is time to move on. God Bless!

    1. Hi Nena,

      Just checking in. How are you and your family doing after the split? I hope you’re all well.

      Ian

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